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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:15 am 
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It's not just that the movie is different from King's book - but, that in making Jack a violent loon from the beginning Kubrick ruins the progression of his own story. It misses the mark not just an adaptation - but, as an "original" story as well, despite a lot of effective touches.

This isn't simply a book vs. movie debate as folks here seem to be making it out as. And, it should be pointed out that it was not greeted with the level of positive reviews that Kubrick's films going back at least as far back as SPARTACUS had garnered.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:11 am 
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Sorry to be so late to the game with my take. When I posted this question, I wasn't sure if I'd have anything interesting to add, but all of your finely considered contributions have inspired me to chip in. So lemme tell you my SHINING stories, and then I'll respond to a few salient points made in this thread.

First off, it appears that many of us share the same initial experience with THE SHINING: youthful dread. I've often told this story, but as a child I was absolutely petrified by the ads (yes, the ads) for THE SHINING and A CLOCKWORK ORANGE that ran in the old Movie Channel guides in the early 80's. Just the iconic image of Nicholson's maniacal mug busted through the bathroom door was enough to send chills down my spine (although I'm not quite sure why the CLOCKWORK ORANGE poster art scared me so.) Incidentally, I was also stone cold terrified of David Lynch's THE ELEPHANT MAN, based solely on seeing the section where John Merrick is first unmasked. Today, Kubrick and Lynch are two of my all-time favorite directors. Go figure.

In any case, as a result of my childhood fears, I didn't see THE SHINING until.....my first Horror Marathon, the 1993 NIGHT OF THE LIVING DREXEL. But then again, I didn't really see it there either; rather, I caught the first 20 minutes. As many of you know, my only two Horror Marathons at the dear departed Drexel North (R.I.P.) were mildly marred by my status as a high school marching band member, and the attendant duty to attend the same damn marching band contest at Tecumseh High School in New Carlisle two years in a row on the same damn date which happened to be the day of the Horror Marathon. Not that I'm bitter about it or anything.

So anyway, yeah, I showed up for my first ever Horror Marathon, bought a t-shirt, sat down with my friends, heard Bruce give his opening spiel, watched the trailers for ARMY OF DARKNESS, NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS and some others, saw the opening 20 minutes of THE SHINING...and then exited the theater so that my older brother could drive me to my high school, so that he could then drive me to New Carlisle and back. And get this: aside from knowing the cast, the director, and that Stephen King wrote the book, I had no clue whatsoever about what the hell THE SHINING was about. None. So I missed the majority of this unknown film that had so haunted my childhood nightmares, along with A CHINESE GHOST STORY and NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD. But hey, I made it back for the great Brian Yuzna-directed, Mindy Clarke-starring ode to undead goth bondage that is RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD 3. And I made it through the rest of the Horror Marathon unscathed.

So how did I actually see the entirety of THE SHINING? Well, a few days later, my dad took me to Blockbuster Video and I rented the film. And I remember liking it, so much so that I read the book shortly thereafter. Being a 16-year old horror fan who had just received his first major exposure to R-rated terror flicks (and what a bunch that 1993 Horrorthon featured!), I found THE SHINING to be cool....mainly because by 1993 it had entered into the cultural lingua franca as being a signifier of cool. But I don't know if I found it particularly terrifying. Oddly enough, one of my fondest memories from this seminal period of emerging fandom was from catching part of tv edit of THE SHINING when it played early on Halloween Sunday morning on local tv a week after the Marathon. This was back when local channels still ran a random film at 2am on the weekends, so seeing part of this iconic flick that I'd finally discovered (while half awake) brought back immediate fond memories of the Horror Marathon from the weekend before (I was a little obsessive about the Drexel North back then.)

It was only later that THE SHINING started to work its magic on me. After first viewing it in 1993, I then saw it again quite a few times over the next 7-8 years, the result of a boom in local theaters starting midnight series, me acquiring the VHS version of the film and playing it at two of my home video basement continuations of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DREXEL, etc. etc. And like any film with which you grow so familiar, its effects began to wear off on me a bit. So many of the lines from the film have taken on a call and response infamy that they started to lose their power over me, and more and more I admired the craft but not the impact of the film. So I called a moratorium on watching THE SHINING. In fact, when we last showed it at 2005 Incredible 2-Headed Marathon, I only saw a few minutes before heading out to the lobby to chat with friends.

So what hooked me back in? Yep, it was ROOM 237. We've debated that film before, so I won't go into it too much; suffice it to say that Rodney Ascher's intent isn't to validate or mock the SHINING theorists, but to examine the power of art to inspire and how sometimes strange and offbase analysis can still contain the seeds of greater truth. When I saw ROOM 237 last spring, it opened up so many interesting thoughts in my head that I pulled out the SHINING Blu-Ray and gave it a whirl. And suddenly, like magic, THE SHINING was real and fresh to me, the result of this documentary and my years-long break from the film....and from me having lived a lot more life in the interim.

And this was a whole different type of magic. Now, when I see the film, I'm newly receptive to all of the underlying creepiness of the setting, the mood, the score. In many ways, THE SHINING is a giant haunted house shock machine, but the truly unnerving parts of it are tucked in the corners, the little character details, the things that aren't quite explained. I can understand the criticism of Nicholson's instant mania, but that also assumes that Kubrick was going for a traditional plot or story. So many of his films offer the ostensible plot as a red herring to draw the audience in (there's a mysterious monolith whose origin needs exploring, a violent young man terrorizes London, a man is jealous of his wife's imagined infidelity so he goes carousing in the underworld), yet end up serving as meditations on greater themes and primal human fears. To borrow a much used phrase, Kubrick's oeuvre (especially post-STRANGELOVE) dabbles heavily in pure cinema.

Now that might not be to everyone's taste. People were disappointed that EYES WIDE SHUT wasn't the erotic fantasia they thought it would be. And yes, THE SHINING has often been panned, especially by Stephen King (who, oddly enough, has famously quoted James M. Cain's dictum about film adaptations not having a whole lot of influence over the power of the original books...even though King keeps coming back to Kubrick even all of these years later.) But again, it's not really Kubrick's fault if the film of THE SHINING doesn't live up to people's expectations.

This might be a side tangent, but I've never quite understood the need some people have for a film adaptation to match up to the source material. As Worldsfinest so accurately noted, literature and film are two very different mediums. You can sit with a book for days, absorbing the story, letting it slowly unfold. Most films have a few hours to work the same trick. And that's fine. I used to teach DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP with BLADE RUNNER, just to illustrate how each work had its own merits inherent in its form, and how translating the book verbatim to the screen in 1982 (or maybe even now) wouldn't really have worked. Plus, if you want the events of the book, just read the damn book.

All right, I've rambled on quite a bit. But that's my take on THE SHINING....until I see it again in two weeks.....and until NASA starts questioning me about the Apollo 11.....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:27 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Sorry, but someone had to do that.

My first memory of the film was at a 10 AM press screening for some art house title at the Nickelodeon Cinema in Boston. Our publicist for the Nick, who also handled these duties for the Orson Welles Cinema, and had been the host for the first few 24-hour sci-fi marathons there until he annoyed the audience so much that by 1979, he was happy to hand me those reins. LA Connection (who I've recently been thinking of as my invisible friend Tony) knows him, though I'm not sure if he was witness to the crowd turning on their host. So anyway, the publicist arrived and began asking everyone if they'd seen the new trailer for Kubrick's film, and went on to describe the bloody elevator in detail. "Spoiler alert" had yet to become a popular phrase.

Along those lines of cultural currency, I'm wondering how the "Here's Johnny!" line resonates with younger audiences nearly a quarter century removed from the nightly Ed McMahon introductions. I'm guessing that Scatman Crothers' Miami bachelor pad is only getting appropriately more outrageous over time.

The head of the theatre chain which ran most of the first run Hollywood product in Boston had become President of the National Association of Theatre Owners on a campaign to demand that the studios screen all films for the exhibitors before booking the films. John Travolta's MOMENT BY MOMENT, on the heels of SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER and GREASE, comes to mind - six people in the audience at the 8 PM opening night show in the huge auditorium where STAR WARS had played for 11 months - but there were several other huge disappointments along those lines. As a result, there was legislation requiring a trade screening for every title. It was at one of these morning where I first saw THE SHINING. Imagine a warm, comfortable 50-seat theatre, with an ashtray for every plush seat, upstairs in a downtown office building. This is one of the rooms where the phrase "banned in Boston" originated. In the seats, a handful of grizzled film bookers, the most delightfully jaded group that you'd ever want to see a film with, as irreverent as any marathon crowd I've ever seen. The introductory titles would elicit chuckles and catcalls citing recent sins against cinema, and there'd often be a derisive wisecrack as some veteran character actor appeared.

I was immediately distracted from the story by the opening scenery. I'd been to Glacier National Park and had spent a summer in the Washington woods, so I was trying to figure out where the glorious helicopter shots and the lodge were in the real world. And yeah, Jack is pretty much over the top from the get-go, but at that point in his career I didn't find that particularly distracting on first viewing. His eccentricity was balanced by the wonderfully quirky Shelley Duvall, a match made in…? I could see them winding up together, and parenthood and the normal disappointments of life sending this couple over the falls. Kubrick's spell kept these crusty viewers relatively wrapped up in the story, with only an occasional snark. Went back and saw it again with real people when it opened. I loved the rich Kubrick-ness of it, even more on second viewing, but certainly wasn't ready to enshrine it in any halls of fame at that point. So we put it in the cellar and let it age.

And does anyone have a couple of Big Wheels that Joe and I could borrow?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:35 pm 
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bar2b2 wrote:
Our publicist for the Nick, who also handled these duties for the Orson Welles Cinema, and had been the host for the first few 24-hour sci-fi marathons there until he annoyed the audience so much that by 1979, he was happy to hand me those reins. LA Connection (who I've recently been thinking of as my invisible friend Tony) knows him, though I'm not sure if he was witness to the crowd turning on their host.


Bruce must be talking about the one and only JD Pollack. I liked him, but, he did come off at times as if he were above us mere marathoids. Bruce was a breath of fresh air - a true marathoid at heart.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:44 am 
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L.A. Connection wrote:
it should be pointed out that it was not greeted with the level of positive reviews that Kubrick's films going back at least as far back as SPARTACUS had garnered.


Two of the greatest Sci-Fi movies of all time, John Carpeter's The Thing and ALIEN, were both meet with below average reviews from critics, it was the fans that propelled them into the Sci-Fi Masterpieces that they are both know as today.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Ghost wrote:
L.A. Connection wrote:
it should be pointed out that it was not greeted with the level of positive reviews that Kubrick's films going back at least as far back as SPARTACUS had garnered.


Two of the greatest Sci-Fi movies of all time, John Carpeter's The Thing and ALIEN, were both meet with below average reviews from critics, it was the fans that propelled them into the Sci-Fi Masterpieces that they are both know as today.


You are overstating the negativity towards ALIEN in its initial release. They were mixed, but, not overwhelmingly so.

And, the critics were right about THE THING - THE most overrated sci-fi film of all time.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:35 pm 
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L.A. Connection wrote:
You are overstating the negativity towards ALIEN in its initial release. They were mixed, but, not overwhelmingly so.


Well I remember Roger Ebert and Gene Siskle didn't even review ALIEN on thier TV Show, they just said it was thier "Dog of the Week" personally I saw a 70mm Print of it at the long gone "Cinema East" in it's first run and loved it.

L.A. Connection wrote:
And, the critics were right about THE THING - THE most overrated sci-fi film of all time.


You are correct, "THE THING" is very overrated, it's right up there with "2001 a Space Odyssey", "Star Wars", "Star Trek: The Wrath of Kahn", "Forbidden Planet", "Day the Earth stood Still (1951)" ect. All overrated and all amazing films that all true Sci-Fi fans love.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Ghost wrote:
L.A. Connection wrote:
You are overstating the negativity towards ALIEN in its initial release. They were mixed, but, not overwhelmingly so.


Well I remember Roger Ebert and Gene Siskle didn't even review ALIEN on thier TV Show, they just said it was thier "Dog of the Week" personally I saw a 70mm Print of it at the long gone "Cinema East" in it's first run and loved it.

L.A. Connection wrote:
And, the critics were right about THE THING - THE most overrated sci-fi film of all time.


You are correct, "THE THING" is very overrated, it's right up there with "2001 a Space Odyssey", "Star Wars", "Star Trek: The Wrath of Kahn", "Forbidden Planet", "Day the Earth stood Still (1951)" ect. All overrated and all amazing films that all true Sci-Fi fans love.


Ebert later put ALIEN on his list of great films. And, there were a lot of enthusiastic reviews of ALIEN from the get go.

2001, STAR WARS, TREK II, FORBIDDEN PLANET & DTESS are all great and properly 'rated'. Only Carpenter's THE THING is over-rated - and ridiculously so.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:39 pm 
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L.A. Connection wrote:
Ghost wrote:
L.A. Connection wrote:
You are overstating the negativity towards ALIEN in its initial release. They were mixed, but, not overwhelmingly so.


Well I remember Roger Ebert and Gene Siskle didn't even review ALIEN on thier TV Show, they just said it was thier "Dog of the Week" personally I saw a 70mm Print of it at the long gone "Cinema East" in it's first run and loved it.

L.A. Connection wrote:
And, the critics were right about THE THING - THE most overrated sci-fi film of all time.


You are correct, "THE THING" is very overrated, it's right up there with "2001 a Space Odyssey", "Star Wars", "Star Trek: The Wrath of Kahn", "Forbidden Planet", "Day the Earth stood Still (1951)" ect. All overrated and all amazing films that all true Sci-Fi fans love.


Ebert later put ALIEN on his list of great films. And, there were a lot of enthusiastic reviews of ALIEN from the get go.

2001, STAR WARS, TREK II, FORBIDDEN PLANET & DTESS are all great and properly 'rated'. Only Carpenter's THE THING is over-rated - and ridiculously so.


troll all you want I am not biting, I am laughing, but I am not biting.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:56 pm 
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I ain't trolling. Folks here know my opinion on THE THING and other issues. I don't just throw things out there to bait folks. (and, by replying over and over you certainly seem to be taking that alleged bait). My views are strong enough that they may encourage debate without having to 'troll'. The person who throws out the 'troll' epithet is usually the one who has no further argument to counter with.

Here is a fuller explanation of why Carpenter's version doesn't work:

"THE THING - Now, I'm the heretic. I saw the film 3 times upon it's initial release (plus, saw the show reel a couple of times AND interviewed Producer David Foster) including at Boston's SF/8. I didn't particularly care for it then. I may have seen bits and pieces of it over the years, but this was the first time I'd seen the whole thing in 27 years....and it simply hasn't gotten any better. Sure, the effects still are groundbreaking for the time. Yes, it's a decently mounted production with some good sequences (particularly the blood test). And, yes, it does hew closer to the novella than the Hawks classic original, but this is one case where fidelity to the story does not necessarily equate with a finer film. Large sequences seem slack in their pacing, Carpenter's direction is prosaic and Kurt Russell is frankly dull in the lead."


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:27 am 
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I'm pretty certain that regardless of how strong you think your thoughts are on THE THING, most people will disagree with you. But that's okay. You're free to dislike something that many people think is great.

I'd like to respectfully redirect the discussion back on the original topic: "Question of the Week #3: The Shining!" from which we have severely deviated. If you're interested in debating the merits of John Carpenter's THE THING, it might be better as a separate topic elsewhere.

And... back to THE SHINING... I have to agree with Joe. While many people have mixed feelings about ROOM 237, it's undeniable that this film hasn't shown a new light on the film. I certainly look at it differently now.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:00 am 
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In the new Rolling Stone issue, Stephen King is asked again about Kubrick's THE SHINING. Here's his current opinion:

I don't get it. But there are a lot of things that I don't get. But obviously people absolutely love it, and they don't understand why I don't. The book is hot, and the movie is cold; the book ends in fire, and the movie in ice. In the book, there's an actual arc where you see this guy, Jack Torrance, trying to be good, and little by little he moves over to this place where he's crazy. And as far as I was concerned, when I saw the movie, Jack was crazy from the first scene. I had to keep my mouth shut at the time. It was a screening, and Nicholson was there. But I'm thinking to myself the minute he's on the screen, "Oh, I know this guy. I've seen him in five motorcycle movies, where Jack Nicholson played the same part." And it's so misogynistic. I mean, Wendy Torrance is just presented as this sort of screaming dishrag.

I understand that author's can be the worst judge of how their own work is adapted to the screen, but King is spot on here.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:34 pm 
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L.A. Connection wrote:
In the new Rolling Stone issue, Stephen King is asked again about Kubrick's THE SHINING. Here's his current opinion:

I don't get it. But there are a lot of things that I don't get. But obviously people absolutely love it, and they don't understand why I don't. The book is hot, and the movie is cold; the book ends in fire, and the movie in ice. In the book, there's an actual arc where you see this guy, Jack Torrance, trying to be good, and little by little he moves over to this place where he's crazy. And as far as I was concerned, when I saw the movie, Jack was crazy from the first scene. I had to keep my mouth shut at the time. It was a screening, and Nicholson was there. But I'm thinking to myself the minute he's on the screen, "Oh, I know this guy. I've seen him in five motorcycle movies, where Jack Nicholson played the same part." And it's so misogynistic. I mean, Wendy Torrance is just presented as this sort of screaming dishrag.

I understand that author's can be the worst judge of how their own work is adapted to the screen, but King is spot on here.


When you write an 800 page book (or however many pages the Shining is) you have time to show your main character slowly going insane, in a 2 hour movie you need to speed things up a bit. Fact of the matter is that for every 1 book fan there are 10 or more movie fans where The Shining is concerned. King wrote an amazing book that was used as a template to make an amazing movie.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:26 pm 
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Ghost wrote:
L.A. Connection wrote:
In the new Rolling Stone issue, Stephen King is asked again about Kubrick's THE SHINING. Here's his current opinion:

I don't get it. But there are a lot of things that I don't get. But obviously people absolutely love it, and they don't understand why I don't. The book is hot, and the movie is cold; the book ends in fire, and the movie in ice. In the book, there's an actual arc where you see this guy, Jack Torrance, trying to be good, and little by little he moves over to this place where he's crazy. And as far as I was concerned, when I saw the movie, Jack was crazy from the first scene. I had to keep my mouth shut at the time. It was a screening, and Nicholson was there. But I'm thinking to myself the minute he's on the screen, "Oh, I know this guy. I've seen him in five motorcycle movies, where Jack Nicholson played the same part." And it's so misogynistic. I mean, Wendy Torrance is just presented as this sort of screaming dishrag.

I understand that author's can be the worst judge of how their own work is adapted to the screen, but King is spot on here.


When you write an 800 page book (or however many pages the Shining is) you have time to show your main character slowly going insane, in a 2 hour movie you need to speed things up a bit...


Of course, you can't put an 800 page book into a 2 hour movie, but, you CAN show the build-up of going crazy on screen in that time - EASILY. Dozens and dozens of movies have done so. I'll name two Ghost stories for comparison - THE INNOCENTS and THE HAUNTING. Both better movies than THE SHINING. Both based on books. Both have lead characters who lose it over the course of the movie. And, both SHORTER IN RUNNING TIME than THE SHINING.

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Last edited by L.A. Connection on Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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