The Ohio Sci-Fi and Horror Marathons

That Slate series was a good read.

My thoughts on "extreme" horror films is pretty much "Bring 'em on." And here's why.

The line-up is available beforehand. Films that you're not familiar with, you can get familiar with before they air (not watching them probably, but catching a trailer or reading a review.) And this is a horror marathon - it isn't really meant to be family friendly.

Do I want my 7-year-old daughter watching A SERBIAN FILM? Heck no. But I'm also not going to subject her to it. Many of the films scheduled to play at the Horror Marathon are, shockingly, rated R. As a parent, I am able to use that information to judge whether or not to show it to my kid.

I want diversity in the line-up. I want a mix of classics, films from the 70s and 80s, and brand new films. I want them to range from "tame" horror like the Universal Monster flicks right through the modern "How realistically can we portray violence?" films of the modern day.

And I think Joe and Bruce make an effort to make the marathons as family-friendly as possible. Look at last year's line-up:

12:00 PM Edison's Frankenstein
12:30 PM Frankenstein
1:50 PM 13 Ghosts
3:45 PM Psycho
6:15 PM Dressed to Kill
8:30 PM Island of Lost Souls
10:15 PM Martyrs
12:15 AM House*
4:30 AM They Came From Within
6:30 AM Robogeisha (Midwest Premiere)
8:15 AM The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2
10:30 AM Prince of Darkness

Everything up until 6:00 p.m. fits into the category of "Family Friendly" horror, and if you're willing to look past the nudity of DRESSED TO KILL, you get until 10:00 p.m. before there's anything that is really unsafe for kids/early teens.

After that? Yeah, it gets a bit extreme. I'm certainly not ready for my kid to watch MARTYRS, HOUSE, THEY CAME FROM WITHIN or ROBOGEISHA just yet. But the list of films was available beforehand, and if I had been thinking about bringing my kids along (not at 7, but maybe in 6 years), I'd have been thinking "Ok, I'll take them back home in the early evening," and based on looking at the schedule, I'd have planned accordingly.

I don't think newbies are going to be "scared off" by having films like MARTYRS, IRREVERSIBLE or A SERBIAN FILM as a part of the line-up. Heck, if nothing else, these films all fit the criteria of "films I'm not likely to have seen in a theatre before - and may never get the chance to again."

Does that mean I want A SERBIAN FILM to play? No, not particularly. I personally like the classics more, and would love to see something else from pre-1950 in the line-up. But I'm not the only one buying a ticket to this event. A good balance is essential. And if A SERBIAN FILM plays, it isn't going to drive me away.

That said, one thing that I kind of miss from early NIGHT OF THE LIVING DREXEL days is the inclusion of a good horror parody/comedy film in the line-up. I loved seeing YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN, THERE'S NOTHING OUT THERE and their ilk as a part of the early line-up.

In all seriousness, I really like this line-up, and the addition of any of the premieres would make me perfectly happy.

I wasn't aware that people hated Session 9. I loved that movie, and pretty much everyone in my "group" felt the same way. Brad Anderson has become one of my favorite directors in the years since. But I digress.

Again, I am not saying that people have to watch A Serbian Film or Human Centipede 2 or anything else if they choose not to. That is your choice. But I believe it is the right of Joe and the other organizers to show whatever they choose. It is THEIR event, their theater and their screen. They have the right to show whatever they want to show. I support their right to do so. If they choose not to show either of those films, for whatever reason, I support that decision as well. If you choose to get up out of your seats and not watch the films in question, you have every right to do that. I would not criticize anyone for not watching a film they don't want to see. But those who want to watch it also have the right to do so.

As far as A Serbian Film being child porn, I believe the important word in that description is "simulated". I don't believe that Joe would consider showing actual child porn. At the very least, they would have to worry about the cops shutting down the event. If the organizers are considering showing this film, they are obviously not worried about a potential backlash from the audience. Again, that is an issue for them to deal with. I could totally understand if they chose not to show the film because they didn't want to deal with all the hassles they might get for it. But it's their call to make, not mine or anyone else's. I support their right to make that call.

Here's the thing: just because a movie depicts a despicable act does not mean the filmmakers or the audience APPROVES of said despicable act. I think we can all agree that murder is a despicable act; yet we're all willing to sit in a theater and watch people get murdered (simulated, of course) for 24 hours straight. I Spit on Your Grave is a graphic depiction of gang rape; does that mean the filmmakers approve of gang rape? I don't think so. Some critics have argued that it does, but I think most horror fans disagree. And rape was just as controversial a subject in 1978 as child abuse is now. Psycho is one of my all-time favorite films; does that mean I approve of stabbing blondes in the shower? Of course not. IT'S A MOVIE. Janet Leigh didn't really die in that shower. Does anyone walk out of Silence of the Lambs and think, "man, cannibals are SO COOL. I want to be one too!" Not unless they're already oriented in that direction.

Child abuse in any form is horrible and despicable. But do we bury our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist? Or do we deal with the shocking and disgusting nature of it, just as we deal with the horrible and despicable things the Nazis did? Do we want society to ignore the problem and just hope it goes away? I don't think that's the way to deal with issues as important as these. Sometimes people have to face the truth head-on to really understand it. And that often involves being nauseated and disgusted by what you see. That's life.

I certainly don't advocate censorship - whether government controlled or done privately by a film festival chairman, for example. Still, there are legit criticisms to be made against the seeming "need" to show one extreme film every year at the event.
First of all, at a marathon one or two films can tip the balance of the schedule a great deal. This is more so at Horror marathons than at SF or schlock ones. I think a major reason a Horror marathon has never really taken off in Boston is that there was an unease between the classic style films and the more modern gore types. Once the audience has seen ZOMBI or HOSTEL, it's pretty tough to book a Roger Corman Poe film or a Universal classic right afterwards. There is a bloodlust in the viewer that has a hard time being turned off within a 5 minute bathroom break. This almost forces the organizers to schedule nearly all the 'tame' films early and the 'hard' films late. And, if you show MARTYRS at 3am there really is no ability to get out and have a dinner break.
Second, I again have a hard time seeing how nauseating a significant portion of the newbies will help grow the event. Again, I ask if the inclusion of such extreme examples has demonstrably shown any growth in ticket sales or local media attention? Many many years ago in Boston, the schlock marathon got some media attention by booking ILSA SHE WOLF OF THE SS. Sure, it was nice to see some press, but, it really just pissed off a good number of marathoners and potential attendees (particularly women). It was a net negative.
And, finally, there is the Marathon is NOT a Zero-Sum game argument (see: http://www.scifimarathon.com/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=1160 ). Basically it means that you can't just arithmetically say that substituting Film A for Film B is equal when it comes to marathons. There are more dynamic forces at work that complicates the math (again, follow the above link for more).
To each his own. We can have a discussion without calling into question other board members' character.

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Long Live the Orson Welles Cinemas

I'm not involved directly enough to have hard numbers, but it certainly seems like attendance at the Horror marathon has grown in the past three years - although that may be as much because of the change back to a 24-hour format and change in venue. I just don't know.

By anecdote? It doesn't seem to have hurt the event any.

But I will say that I take issue with the statement of "nauseating". For a horror marathon, more so than a Sci-Fi marathon, I think that people expect to be faced with difficult films as well as Classic Horror. At least I know that I do.

Compared to the Boston 'thon, it's also worth noting that the Columbus events have been heavier on trailers and shorts between films, which, I think, help as a palate cleanser. I don't recall any significant problems last year transitioning from MARTYRS to HOUSE.

I do agree with many of the points from the "Zero-Sum Game" argument - although not all. But in this case, I really do believe that adding in one or two films that are downright difficult to watch is a net gain for the marathon. Because I will say that while I hated what I felt watching MARTYRS, it stuck with me, and is one of the things that I remember most from last year's marathon.

I did watch Martys on DVD that I barrowed from the Upper Arlington Library before last year's horror thon. I watch the film late at night and after the film was over I never want to see any film that feature defenseless children being tourture ever again. I didn't complain about the DVD to the UA Library borad.

There are some extreme horror films I can stomach as stated in one of my earlier post. If the victim fought back I can put up with it. I recently watched I Saw the Devil. In my opinion the right way to do an extreme horror movie. It told a story. Unlke A Serbin Film that was made just for shock vaule. The same goes for Human Centipeade.

I don't mind extreme horror, It must tell a story.

I don't really see all the big deal over A Serbian Film. I guess I'm one of the few commenting that has seen it(4 times even and own a import DVD of it I bought with extras while up at Motor City Con). It's not a totally bad film but the music got on my nerves and it isn't even as graphic as the reviews and tales from others would have you believe. I've seen more gory/graphic films like Gates of Hell,Dr.Butcher MD or Beyond The Darkness(Buried Alive). I'd say even films like Beyond the Darkness,Cannibal Holocaust or Make Them Die Slowly have a little more notorious backgrounds since they included real animal deaths(and in the case of Beyond the Darkness "reportedly" used real corpses). Everything in A Serbian Film is just that..a film. Just like Last House said in the advertising "It's only a movie,it's only a movie". The tone may be a little more on the sinister side of Man Bites Dog or Henry:Portrait of a Serial Killer but after all is said and done,it's just a movie...but a film with a statement if you listen to the director and makers of the film. So to the defenders of A Serbian Film,it is a movie with a statement to make and social commentary to pour out to its horrified watchers. Since I've already seen it a few times I don't "need" to see it but others may be attracted to the "curiosity factor" of the film and haul some butts into the seats. I say show the sucker and let the chips fall where they may. Everyone who doesn't want to see it will leave and go get some food or talk outside but to deny people the ability to see it seems a little like censorship and since the marathon seems a tad on the mainstream this year I'd say it might actually end up being the talk of the town because of it.

Does the new Sandler flick Jack and Jill qualify as "torture" porn?

I would say any recent Sandler film qualifies as torture to the audience...

I don't know that the Marathon "needs" to show an extreme horror film every year. Again, that is a matter for the business side of things. I don't think it will either hurt attendance or really boost attendance. As far as "nauseating the newbies" goes, I assume that Joe will warn the audience ahead of time that this is an extreme film with images that may shock people. So just like the rest of us, they can make the choice of whether or not to watch the film. A friend of mine who attends the marathons will go home and take a nap during a film he doesn't want to see, then come back. Anyone can do the same. If you're from out of town, you can sleep in your car. Me, I usually take a nap in the theater during films I don't want to see, but that may be difficult in this case.

I don't mean to insult anyone here with my arguments. I hope it isn't being taken that way. I'm just trying to use logic and reason here. We deal with all kinds of issues in movies, TV shows, literature, etc. from murder and rape to genocide and nuclear war. Child abuse is yet another issue that happens in real life, and I think we need to deal with it like adults. I may not like the film either when I finally see it, but I support its right to be shown. And if you haven't seen the film, how do you know it doesn't tell a story?

I'm not a big fan of Cannibal Holocaust as a film, but I supported its right to be shown and still do. I don't particularly enjoy looking at pictures of Nazi atrocities, but I have. Why? So I can understand how truly horrible it was. I learned something from it. Maybe I'm a more sympathetic person from seeing that than I would have been otherwise. It's possible. I would just like to see a film first before I condemn it.

And yet again, will, if you don't want to watch the film, DON'T WATCH THE FILM. No one is forcing you to. I respect your decision. Can you respect mine?

Just wanted to say one more thing. I don't intend to keep discussing this topic ad nauseum (so to speak), but I would like to hear Joe's opinion as organizer and chief figurehead of the horror marathon. I think we'd all benefit from hearing why he wants to show these kind of films in the first place.

Of course, if he chooses not to speak on this topic, that's OK too. I support his decision either way...

I edited my earlier post because I realized one of my statements was absurd. Hope you don't mind...

I know there was a question about this topic in the surveys passed out last year -- perhaps some of that feedback could be shared?

Or maybe Joe will be the special guest for the marathon and we'll have an hour-long discussion on this topic.

HA! Be careful what you wish for!



The general consensus of last year's surveys was that Marathoid Nation (TM) didn't mind the inclusion of more extreme films, so long as they were limited to one or so per lineup.

I've always joked with Bruce that if a guest didn't show, we should just sit in large chairs in the front and roll video of old Marathons on the screen, while we provide live narration/anecdotes:

"Oh geez, it's that guy! I remember him!"

"Man, I was really tired in this shot."

"Boy, those were the days, weren't they?"

"This girl also appears in the tapes for Horror Marathon 4, 5, and 7. And her boyfriend wins the costume contest in tape 4 at the 22:30 mark" (Okay, that' me, not Bruce.)

As for my programming philosophy when it comes to the more extreme fare discussed in this lineup? I've been wanting to chime in, but other matters most Marathoid have been monopolizing my time this week. In some ways, I think we should just keep threatening to show Serbian every year, 'cause there have been some excellent insights in this thread. I'll try to post something later, but in the meantime, I highly recommend this interview with the Serbian creative team, which explains many of their motivations. Warning, as thar be spoilers of a sort within...and political talk...which is relevant.

Thanks Joe. Very interesting interview. I look forward to reading your comments. Didn't mean to put you on the spot or anything... I just thought the readers (myself included) would benefit from your point of view.

Once upon a time, many years ago, two screenwriters disillusioned by their wartime experiences sought to create a film that would serve as an allegory for the brutality of powerful politicians. This film, which when released was considered shocking in some quarters and even pulled from a Los Angeles engagement due to a riot, was to illustrate "the way powerful men hypnotized helpless millions into doing their bidding, even if it meant turning them into killers and then murdering them."

The text I'm quoting from? Joe Bob Briggs's excellent 2002 book Profoundly Disturbing: Shocking Movies That Changed History. If you haven't read it, get over to your nearest bookstore/e-tailer/guy in a back alley and procure yourself a copy...or two...or five. (See Joe Bob, I'm on your side.)

The film that Mr. Briggs so eloquently details? The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari.

For the past two years, we've been having this debate about Irreversible, Martyrs, A Serbian Film and the broad topic of extreme horror at the Marathons. It's been one hell of a conversation starter, eliciting some of the more eloquent posts in this forum's history. And quite a few of you have asked what my thoughts are on these matters. So, a little history.

When Stuart Gordon confirmed that he would be our guest of honor in late August of 2009, we gave him the option of choosing a non-Gordon horror film to accompany From Beyond. Of course, he chose Irreversible, a title that we hadn't even considered, but that I was floored by when he suggested it. In many ways, it was the perfect film to complement Stuart's appearance. His directorial career has been all about breaking taboos and pushing his audience's definition of what they find comfortable. I had seen it once before on video, but seeing it again in a theater was a riveting experience, one of my favorite parts of the Marathon.

Last year, faced with a solid lineup that nonetheless was heavy on pre-1990 films, we were brainstorming for more recent titles. I had seen Martyrs in the spring and found it to be a deeply shocking and disturbing ride. I've seen enough horror films to earn a strong stomach, but Martyrs challenged my fortitude. And, as others in this thread have pointed out, the horror genre has stayed vital and relevant by making viewers uncomfortable. So we booked it.

And then there's A Serbian Film. Full disclosure: I've been the one doing most of the pushing to show it these past two years, so if you want to take up your pitchforks and torches, leave Bruce out of the riot. More full disclosure: I'm not sure what my reaction to this film would be, because I haven't seen it. That scares me a bit...but I don't consider that to be a bad thing.

We've discussed this seemingly ad nauseum on this board, but there are many films that we look back on with misty nostalgia today that were considered extreme for their time. Many have played the Marathon. See the mass walkout from the Orson Welles Cinema's main house when They Came from Within played at their 3rd Sci-Fi Marathon in 1978. See the nauseated audience members and moral outrage upon the release of The Exorcist. See the bloodbath of Braindead/Dead Alive, which, though it tempers its gore with humor, is still a pretty disgusting experience. See Last House on the Left, one of the most notorious rape/revenge films of its time, which played to generally receptive audience at the 1998 Bride of Shocktoberfest all-nighter.

This is the history of the horror genre: taboos are shattered and limits pushed. If horror films play it safe for too long, they become stagnant relics of a bygone era. And with each new generation comes new limits and new taboos to push and or/break.

"But what about the implied child abuse in Serbian Film?" you might say. My answer: go back and watch James Whale's Frankenstein, which features a child murder that was considered scandalous and subsequently cut from all prints of the film for decades. Tame today, but in its time it was too much for many.

I often feel like this conversation ultimately loops back to programming philosophy. Yes, at heart, the Marathons are a business; if they made no money on a consistent basis, they would disappear. But they're also a cultural event and a reflection of whoever is organizing them. And including films that are considered more extreme in recent lineups is part of that philosophy.

Some loyal Marathoids attend the event year after year looking forward to the black and white classics. Some want the 70's gore and depravity. Some want goofy films. If the history of the Columbus Marathons has proven anything, it's that a balance of all of these sub-genres (and more) is an integral part of any good lineup. Sure, there are some years with a heavier balance toward one genre or another, but there's also never been an all pre-code Expressionist Marathon or an Italian Sex Crime Marathon (although I've often joked with Bruce that if we ever want to kill the event we should just book an all-lesbian vampire 24-hour fest and see what happens.)

And a big part of this balance is looking to the future. Bruce and I decided a long time ago that we didn't want to turn the Marathons into pure nostalgia events (those of you who know me and how much I've pilfered past Marathons for inspiration can feel free to laugh). The only way that they could hope to remain vital was to include new films that stretched the boundaries of shock. This period of Marathon history (which I think I've referred to in the past as the Second Era of the Marathons...look out for the Cretaceous era, coming soon) has coincided with a general weakening of the U.S. horror genre (with an increase in PG-13 films), but a renaissance period for foreign horror. It's no coincidence that much of the groundbreaking terror cinema from overseas has gone waaaaay over the line in terms of pushing audience boundaries (see Miike, T....which is why we showed Ichi The Killer in 2003, a film that opens with its title rising out of the main character's ejaculate, which was summoned forth as he watched a woman being raped...a film that I heard almost no complaints about when it screened...). That's the state of the modern genre.

So there you go. I hope that clears things up a bit. And as WolfNC-17's post reminds us all, keep repeating to yourself: IT'S ONLY A MOVIE...ONLY A MOVIE...ONLY A MOVIE...